Prolly off topic – but here's a question about vocals…
Question:
> No, it’s not an urban legend, the Dead used that system for a while. > It looked like a wall of speakers behind the band…
> …Anyway, the system was utterly huge, and they had two complete sets, > with one being "leapfrogged" ahead to the next venue in order to allow > enough time to set everything up.
I’m in awe! If they had toured with that system for a few years they would’ve had to change their name to The Greatful Deaf. http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No, it’s not an urban legend, the Dead used that system for a while. > It looked like a wall of speakers behind the band… > …Anyway, the system was utterly huge, and they had two complete sets, > with one being "leapfrogged" ahead to the next venue in order to allow > enough time to set everything up. > I’m in awe! > If they had toured with that system for a few years they would’ve had > to change their name to The Greatful Deaf. > http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ > Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Well, they *played* like they were deaf. Tone-deaf, anyway… 
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> True, without someone to turn unused mics down, it can be a problem. > The Grateful Dead played around with a few schemes to control this. > One was to have a pad from a burglar alarm placed in front of each > singer’s mic; when you stepped up to your mic, it un-muted it. > Another gizmo they were working on — I don’t know if they ever got it > working or not — was the infrared source/sensor from a camera’s > autofocus that would un-mute the mic when you moved within range. >Those are some pretty interesting ideas as far as mic control goes. >The people that came up with these were probably Alembic (yes, THAT >Alembic, the ones that make the high-end basses and guitars). They >also supposedly had a PA system that could be placed *behind* the >band but not cause feedback. This may have been an urban legend as >far as PA systems go, but if it was possible, I don’t think I’d want >to be blown off the stage by my own band’s sound.
No, it’s not an urban legend, the Dead used that system for a while. It looked like a wall of speakers behind the band, and there were two unique things about it. First, it consisted of one complete amplification system for each source, i.e. every vocal mic, instrument mic, etc. had its own amp and speakers. This accounted for the huge number of speakers, and the main advantage, as I understand it, was to eliminate intermodulation distortion, which is what happens when two sources are mixed and fed through the same system. Seems a bit nit-picky for a rock ‘n roll show, and nobody seems to think it’s much of a problem these days. The other oddity about that system was that they put up two vocal mics for each singer, with the polarity reversed on one of them. This helped cancel out much of the feedback that would otherwise occur with the speakers located at the rear of the stage. But, as long as the singer got real close up on *one* of the mics, it didn’t cancel out the voice because the signal would be much stronger on the one than on the other. I would guess that this would still result in some "phasey" kind of comb filtering, though, especially on sounds from the backline amps and drums leaking into the vocal mics. That may be why they were messing around with ways to automatically mute the mics when not in use. Anyway, the system was utterly huge, and they had two complete sets, with one being "leapfrogged" ahead to the next venue in order to allow enough time to set everything up. The oil shortage of the mid-seventies made it financially impractical to move the thing around, so it was eventually sold off. It was said that a good percentage of the bay area bands at the time ended up with various pieces of those systems.
Response:
> Yeah, exactly. The Shure SM-57s and SM-58s have on/of switches the > Shure SM-57 and SM-58 do not. > Anyway the point is the guy said good mics have on/off switches and > crappy ones do not, which is wrong. > Chris > star.star > www.starstar.ca
The Shure SM58 WITH an on/off switch is called an SM58S for ordering and in-house identification. I’m holding an SM58 WITH the on/off switch and it just says SM58…..Shure doesn’t us the SM58S designation on the actual microphones. This might lead to some of the disagreement going on here because BOTH versions (with and without on/off switch) are clearly marked SM58. One great reason for the on/off switch on the SM58 is to keep it quiet while one of these mikes lays hidden as a backup to our on-stage battery operated wireless Beta 58 models. If something goes wrong with a wireless, the SM58S is ready nearby (in the "off" position) to rock as a backup in an emergency. And they ain’t cheap because they have a switch, they’re actually more expensive. But it’s the only vocal use I see for a Shure SM58 anymore — BACKUP! I mean, it’s a 30-year-old design and it ain’t a violin getting better with age. Now stop fighting before I tell Mom! — Jay
Response:
>> Soundman? Those are for rich bands. We NEVER had a soundman. It > was a set-and-forget PA system.
> Well, I never did sound for any rich bands, but there were a couple of > bands that found it worth their while, even if it meant they were > paying me the same thirty bucks or so that they were taking home > (1970s and 80s era, tiny clubs, more in it for the fun than the > money).
I don’t think anyone would’ve chanced being a soundman for us, which would have meant a torture session of horrid Foghat, BTO, Alice Cooper, Who, and T-Rex coversongs. 8^/ In any case, the next time I’ll try to take into account a *broader* view of what people need as far as live vocals microphones go. I’ll even admit that I might’ve downed a pint of stout not 20 minutes before that post! So, ehhh, lessons learnt. > Back in the day, I *had* to have an on/off switch on the vocal mics > because of other sounds bleeding in if you weren’t singing into > that particular mic. This was a microphone that stayed on the mic > stand. Otherwise, a switch on a mic being used by a Roger Daltry > mic twirling type would be rather a pain in the backside to deal > with. By the way, the mic I used was a popular (then, the ’70s) > Electro Voice mic.
> True, without someone to turn unused mics down, it can be a problem. > The Grateful Dead played around with a few schemes to control this. > One was to have a pad from a burglar alarm placed in front of each > singer’s mic; when you stepped up to your mic, it un-muted it. > Another gizmo they were working on — I don’t know if they ever got it > working or not — was the infrared source/sensor from a camera’s > autofocus that would un-mute the mic when you moved within range. > A solution slightly more elegant than a mic with a switch would be to > use one of those "cough drop" pedals that allows you to mute your mic > with a footswitch.
Those are some pretty interesting ideas as far as mic control goes. The people that came up with these were probably Alembic (yes, THAT Alembic, the ones that make the high-end basses and guitars). They also supposedly had a PA system that could be placed *behind* the band but not cause feedback. This may have been an urban legend as far as PA systems go, but if it was possible, I don’t think I’d want to be blown off the stage by my own band’s sound. http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Response:
Yeah, exactly. The Shure SM-57s and SM-58s have on/of switches the Shure SM-57 and SM-58 do not. Anyway the point is the guy said good mics have on/off switches and crappy ones do not, which is wrong. Chris star.star www.starstar.ca
Response:
> And if you work as a soundman, you’ll curse the day they decided to > put on/off switches on mics, because it causes way more problems than > it solves. The only mics I ever had to work with live that had > switches on them were some cheap Shure "unidyn" models, and even they > had a switch plate that could be turned around to lock the switch in > the "on" position…
Soundman? Those are for rich bands. We NEVER had a soundman. It was a set-and-forget PA system. Back in the day, I *had* to have an on/off switch on the vocal mics because of other sounds bleeding in if you weren’t singing into that particular mic. This was a microphone that stayed on the mic stand. Otherwise, a switch on a mic being used by a Roger Daltry mic twirling type would be rather a pain in the backside to deal with. By the way, the mic I used was a popular (then, the ’70s) Electro Voice mic. http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Response:
I think that Mike C will have to eat his words. Of course, when there is a soundman, you don’t want switches on a microphone. But, how many here have a soundman everytime they gig in some bar or at a wedding or a party? Switches on mics cost more. Ask Charlie Musselwhite if he uses a switch on his SM58. He will answer yes because he often plays harmonica into a small tube amp that is miked into the main P.A. system. If he does not turn off his SM58S when he just sings or plays guitar (yes he plays guitar) he may get feedback from the small tube amp.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sounds like Gary is posting about that which he does not know… > >> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > >> Why would you want that? > >Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or > >later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during > >certain situations. > And if you work as a soundman, you’ll curse the day they decided to > put on/off switches on mics, because it causes way more problems than > it solves. The only mics I ever had to work with live that had > switches on them were some cheap Shure "unidyn" models, and even they > had a switch plate that could be turned around to lock the switch in > the "on" position. I used to do corporate meeting gigs, and before > putting a wireless mic on a speaker, I’d gaffer tape the power and > standby switches "on". It’s insurance. > >Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone > >without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. > >> Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. > >What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a > >recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an > >on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live > >rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other > >hi-brow event. > SM57? SM58?
Response:
>> And if you work as a soundman, you’ll curse the day they decided to > put on/off switches on mics, because it causes way more problems than > it solves. The only mics I ever had to work with live that had > switches on them were some cheap Shure "unidyn" models, and even they > had a switch plate that could be turned around to lock the switch in > the "on" position… >Soundman? Those are for rich bands. We NEVER had a soundman. It >was a set-and-forget PA system.
Well, I never did sound for any rich bands, but there were a couple of bands that found it worth their while, even if it meant they were paying me the same thirty bucks or so that they were taking home (1970s and 80s era, tiny clubs, more in it for the fun than the money). >Back in the day, I *had* to have an on/off switch on the vocal mics >because of other sounds bleeding in if you weren’t singing into >that particular mic. This was a microphone that stayed on the mic >stand. Otherwise, a switch on a mic being used by a Roger Daltry >mic twirling type would be rather a pain in the backside to deal >with. By the way, the mic I used was a popular (then, the ’70s) >Electro Voice mic.
True, without someone to turn unused mics down, it can be a problem. The Grateful Dead played around with a few schemes to control this. One was to have a pad from a burglar alarm placed in front of each singer’s mic; when you stepped up to your mic, it un-muted it. Another gizmo they were working on — I don’t know if they ever got it working or not — was the infrared source/sensor from a camera’s autofocus that would un-mute the mic when you moved within range. A solution slightly more elegant than a mic with a switch would be to use one of those "cough drop" pedals that allows you to mute your mic with a footswitch. Still, anytime you add another switch to the mic path, it’s inevitable that at some point it’s going to be switched off, and someone’s going to say "hey, why isn’t this working", and someone else is going to say "here let me push the fader up", at the same time the first guy is saying "oh, I see, let me just flip the switch on", at which point massive feedback occurs.
Response:
Sounds like you’d better take a better look at what’s being used in the field. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > > Why would you want that? > Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or > later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during > certain situations. > Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone > without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. > > Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. > What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a > recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an > on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live > rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other > hi-brow event. > http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ > Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Response:
Gary No offense but you are dead wrong. Shure SM57s and 58s are the industry standard live vocal mics and they DO NOT have on/off switches. As for you comment regarding telling if a mic is cheap/crappy, in my experience mics with on/off switches are generally just that. Chris star.star www.starstar.ca
Response:
The reason you see lots of mics without "on-off" switches is because they are a bit cheaper. SM58 and SM57 come with or without the switch.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > Why would you want that? Industry standard live vocal mics do not > have "on/off" switches. > Chris > star.star > www.starstar.ca
Response:
Gruncho…..do a search on the Shure site. You will see that the SM58S has a switch and the SM57S has a switch. Most good hand held mics are available with a switch. When you have the money to have a soundman, it’s a different matter.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary > No offense but you are dead wrong. Shure SM57s and 58s are the > industry standard live vocal mics and they DO NOT have on/off > switches. > As for you comment regarding telling if a mic is cheap/crappy, in my > experience mics with on/off switches are generally just that. > Chris > star.star > www.starstar.ca
Response:
They sure do have "on-off" switches. The SM58 becomes the SM58S when it has a switch. No one mentions the extra "S" when they mention the SM58 or SM57. You turn off the mic when you don’t want any strange feedback or extra noise. I use 2 mics. 1 for voice and the other for harmonica. When not singing, I turn my vocal mic off. Sorry….but unlike "Guncho", our blues band does not have a soundman. I never forget to turn my mic on when I need it. The soundmen for our band are the band members. Each one of us in turn listens to the others play and we adjust the volumes and the frequency response when we set up few hours before the gig. We don’t touch anything unless it’s really special or if a musician we know advises us. It’s not the same when the place is empty and when it is full of people. We always get compliments on the quality and balance of our sound. There are other good mics available. Electro-Voice and Sony have good mics. The SM48 is as good as the SM58 but not as ruggedly constructed.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > > Why would you want that? > Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or > later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during > certain situations. > Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone > without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. > > Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. > What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a > recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an > on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live > rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other > hi-brow event. > http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ > Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos > Funny, as Guncho said, Shure 57 mics don’t have on/off switches, and the 57 > and 58 mics are the most popular vocal mics out there.
Response:
Sounds like Gary is posting about that which he does not know…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" >> Why would you want that? >Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or >later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during >certain situations. > And if you work as a soundman, you’ll curse the day they decided to > put on/off switches on mics, because it causes way more problems than > it solves. The only mics I ever had to work with live that had > switches on them were some cheap Shure "unidyn" models, and even they > had a switch plate that could be turned around to lock the switch in > the "on" position. I used to do corporate meeting gigs, and before > putting a wireless mic on a speaker, I’d gaffer tape the power and > standby switches "on". It’s insurance. >Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone >without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. >> Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. >What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a >recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an >on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live >rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other >hi-brow event. > SM57? SM58?
Response:
> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > Why would you want that?
Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during certain situations. Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. > Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches.
What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other hi-brow event. http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > Why would you want that? > Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or > later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during > certain situations. > Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone > without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. > Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. > What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a > recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an > on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live > rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other > hi-brow event. > http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ > Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Funny, as Guncho said, Shure 57 mics don’t have on/off switches, and the 57 and 58 mics are the most popular vocal mics out there.
Response:
>> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > Why would you want that? >Convenience! Once you start your new task as vocalist, sooner or >later you will find out how useful an on/off switch can be during >certain situations.
And if you work as a soundman, you’ll curse the day they decided to put on/off switches on mics, because it causes way more problems than it solves. The only mics I ever had to work with live that had switches on them were some cheap Shure "unidyn" models, and even they had a switch plate that could be turned around to lock the switch in the "on" position. I used to do corporate meeting gigs, and before putting a wireless mic on a speaker, I’d gaffer tape the power and standby switches "on". It’s insurance. >Basically a quick rule for dynamic vocal mics is that a microphone >without an on/off switch is likely a cheap-o. > Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. >What would be considered an excellent vocals microphone for use in a >recording studio (usually a condensor mic), will likely NOT have an >on/off switch. These microphones typically aren’t used in a live >rock.n.roll concert, unless you are playing live on TV or some other >hi-brow event.
SM57? SM58?
Response:
> I’ve been given the job of singing for my band, and gotta learn > quickly. > I have a Peavy xr 600E PA head, and a pair of speakers. The mic is a > Nady Starpower sp-9. That’s all I got! What else should I get? > Cheaper the better. All support eagerly welcomed 
> Is anyone familiar with this mic? Is it omni-directional, etc.? I > don’t know the difference, or what is needed for singing. Is there a > good resource on the web that would help me out, or does anyone have > the answers?
I recall seeing some Starpower mics at the (now) defunct Mars Music. Since a Starpower is a vocal microphone, its definitely going to be a cardioid microphone. I’m pretty sure that this is just another in a long list of Shure SM-58 mic clones. If you’re going to be doing vocals on a regular basis, you should eventually get around to buying yourself a vocal microphone for live work that suits your vocal range. Keep in mind that some models of vocal microphones are designed to work better for women’s voices, etc. Should this eventuality arise, you should steer away from the expensive and somewhat-fragile condensor microphones and focus on dynamic microphones. A good dynamic vocal microphone with a neodymium element can’t be beat. You also want to get a *black* microphone, so that it doesn’t detract from your face when you are on stage (if this important to you). You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch! http://www.gary-hendershot.com/ Houston, Tejas, Estados Unidos
Response:
"You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" Why would you want that? Industry standard live vocal mics do not have "on/off" switches. Chris star.star www.starstar.ca
Response:
> "You also want a vocal microphone with an on/off switch!" > Why would you want that? Industry standard live vocal mics do not > have "on/off" switches. > Chris > star.star > www.starstar.ca
Bull. many of them do. Many people like switches. It’s not big deal. They make Shure 57s and 58s. and you can’t get much more standard than that, with switches, too. lots of mics have on/off switches. Twang!
Response:
I’ve never seen a Shure 58 or 57 with an on/off switch. I’ve also never played a gig where the vocals mics had switches. I think they took them off so dumb singers weren’t accidentally turning the mics off all the time then giving the soundmen dirty looks! Keraang! Chris star.star www.starstar.ca
Response:
I’ve been given the job of singing for my band, and gotta learn quickly. I have a Peavy xr 600E PA head, and a pair of speakers. The mic is a Nady Starpower sp-9. That’s all I got! What else should I get? Cheaper the better. All support eagerly welcomed Is anyone familiar with this mic? Is it omni-directional, etc.? I don’t know the difference, or what is needed for singing. Is there a good resource on the web that would help me out, or does anyone have the answers? VERY appreciative of all the great support you guys give on these groups. Thank you. Bill
Response:
If you have a decent mic and a loud enough PA the rest my friend, is up to you! "What else should I get?" A natural singing voice plus years of experience. Chris
Response:
The old standby is the Shure SM-58. The SM-48 is similar, not as expensive but not as rugged. I would say that for now, you are ok. You can find the stats for your mic on the internet. Use different search engines. Experiment with different microphones. I have the Peavey XR 600 C. Very similar to yours. It has an equalizer, monitor out, tape in and out, spring reverb etc. I don’t think your amp has an equalizer….if not, I guess that would be your next acquisition. . I bought an old Turner SE-13 for only a few dollars. It sounds great for vocals.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve been given the job of singing for my band, and gotta learn > quickly. > I have a Peavy xr 600E PA head, and a pair of speakers. The mic is a > Nady Starpower sp-9. That’s all I got! What else should I get? > Cheaper the better. All support eagerly welcomed > Is anyone familiar with this mic? Is it omni-directional, etc.? I > don’t know the difference, or what is needed for singing. Is there a > good resource on the web that would help me out, or does anyone have > the answers? > VERY appreciative of all the great support you guys give on these > groups. Thank you. > Bill
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