Question:
> >Did you really start to grasp the concept of modal music until you started >relating a mode as a separate entity from the related major scale. > When you play a melody or solo you are always playing in modes and > often more than one mode. > This is done unconsciously. > If you are writing or transcribing music it is helpful to know your > modes to better understand the music. > I think you are putting too much in to modes. > But the more you know about music the bigger your tool box will be for > playing. > Pt
I don’t think so, for me and others who are not gifted. I had to struggle to develop my ear and my instincts were not strong, so I needed to intellectualize the music some to become a decent guitar player. There are people out there who, without a lick of musical understanding can pop off sad, happy Spanish etc. I am not one of them. When a GOOD player plays a solo he/she is playing in modes, but novices often miss this nuance and that is one of the reasons they sound like a beginner. When you get good then the switch is unconscious, when you are starting out the conscious understanding can be a very important tool.
Response:
>I don’t think so, for me and others who are not gifted. I had to struggle >to develop my ear and my instincts were not strong, so I needed to >intellectualize the music some to become a decent guitar player. There are >people out there who, without a lick of musical understanding can pop off >sad, happy Spanish etc. I am not one of them. When a GOOD player plays a >solo he/she is playing in modes, but novices often miss this nuance and that >is one of the reasons they sound like a beginner. When you get good then >the switch is unconscious, when you are starting out the conscious >understanding can be a very important tool.
I spent three years at full time college learning music. This was after I had been playing and taking lessons for over 15 years. I studied constantly till I had what I was learning embedded in my brain. When I played I thought theory. What was I playing and why. But this took away from my playing with feeling. I played mechanically, much like shredders today do. I could play anything I could think and my mind was loaded with theory. It took years to be able to play what I feel and not worry about what mode I am using. If someone asks I can tell them what mode I am using but I do not think about it when playing. Theory is basically the language of music. The way you communicate with other musicians and yourself. It doesn’t designate how you play your instrument. Pt
Response:
>If you analyze your gains as a musician I ask…… >Did you really start to grasp the concept of modal music until you started >relating a mode as a separate entity from the related major scale.
When you play a melody or solo you are always playing in modes and often more than one mode. This is done unconsciously. If you are writing or transcribing music it is helpful to know your modes to better understand the music. I think you are putting too much in to modes. But the more you know about music the bigger your tool box will be for playing. Pt
Response:
If you analyze your gains as a musician I ask…… Did you really start to grasp the concept of modal music until you started relating a mode as a separate entity from the related major scale. By this I mean, when I first tried to grasp modes, I got the idea that the notes are the same, but the tonal center is different on paper. That was easy enough, but it wasn’t for a long time that I grasped the concept that your whole approach to a scale is completely different because the riffs that are right start in different places. A great example of what I mean is that the minor 7 to root bend in the Mixolydian mode is fairly powerful and very often used, but the same notes when played in the next scale of Aeolian the notes are then root to major 2nd. Not a powerful or important note combination. You mentioned both of the typical ways of looking at a scale as if they were similar, I contend that parallel scale method (flatting or sharping notes) is a more meaningful way of GRASPING modal concept. The relative scale method is a convenient learning tool, but it does little to help you play modally. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, theoretical debate on whether it is right or wrong aside, many (myself > included) relate all of the modes to their corresponding major scale > because of the fingerings. I learned this from Jimmy Bruno’s essential > fingerings book. The basic gist is that, if you look at a lot of books out > there on scales, you’ll see that they have hundreds of scale fingering > diagrams. It would take a player years and years, if ever, to memorize all > of them. The way I learned was to simply work out specific, economical major > scale fingerings, and then flat or sharpen certain notes within those scale > fingerings in order to derive other scales, or even better, simply start and > end the same major scale fingering at a different interval (the 2nd for > Dorian, for example) in order to derive modes.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I consider the D Dorian mode a scale, For this reason the Harmonic > minor > scale can have modes > I definitely agree with you here about modes. Modes are individual > scales. And definietly, starting the harmonic minor scale on > different notes gives different scales, or modes. > I do not consider it the C major scale even though they sharenotes. > Definetly. And this is where I think some poeple disagreed when > talking about keys, if e.g. sweet home alabama was written in d > mixolydian, it is in the d mixolydian scale and therefore the key of > D. Not, d mixolydian is a mode of g major, therefore its in the key > of G. > a general question to anyone who wants to answer it, Why should all > modes have to realte to the major scale? > Each mode has its own unique sound, i.e. they are differnt, and you > use each one in its own separate way. > Essentially, the ancient greeks made the major scale and discovered > its modes. Why can that same train of thought not be applied to the > harmonic minor scale? > It is a scale, it sounds different from which note you start it from, > becuase of the interval positions, so why not refer that as a mode > with a seperate scale/identity in itself, like modes of the major? > Modes of harmonic minor sounds completely reasnoble and theoretically > correct. > If you want to change/progress knowledge or be original you have to > think outside what is commonly accepted. > Aye, Jon >> While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to >> think that > a >> whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, >> etc.), > the >> fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a >> classification from someone and not necessarily those people >> themselves. Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, >> Ionian, etc.) Most of > these >> are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples >> that had invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi >> => Dorian, > Lydisti >> => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed >> those scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their >> heritage, we > don’t >> know. >> Several other scales are named after groups of people including : >> the hindu scale >> the gypsy scale >> the hungarian scale >> etc. etc. etc. >> The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s >> (rather good) "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an >> introduction to scales, > including 2 >> pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). >> On p.125 he gives >> Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. >> This would give a step pattern of >> W-m3-W-m3-W, >> which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. >> Definately NOT harmonic minor. >> Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music >> of > Many >> Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful >> and > would >> highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on >> scales/tunings of > people >> around the world. >> (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). >> Peace, >> Christopher Roberts >>> I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, >>> as > usual. >>> What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, > considering >>> how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the >>> Egyptian scale. >>> To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate > western >>> harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. >>> The A Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C >>> Major. That is > to >>> say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), >>> you > have >>> the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. >>> When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with >>> Am7, Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing >>> this, it > turns >>> out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in >>> the scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. >>> When you start with the root note, A, and build a chord using >>> every other note in > the >>> scale, you get A, C, E, & G. That’s an Am7 chord. Well, when you >>> use the notes of this scale, and build the chord starting on E, >>> you end up with > E, >>> G, B, & D, which is an Em7 chord. >>> In order to clarify that we are in the key of Am, it has become >>> standard > to >>> make the V chord a dominant 7 chord. Edom7 would be spelled E, G#, >>> B, and > D. >>> Notice the difference between the Em7 and the E7: the difference >>> between > G >>> and G#. The E7 chord, with it’s G# and it’s D, wants to resolve to >>> Am, as the G# wants to resolve to A. This is an important note to >>> "tonicize" the > Am >>> chord, meaning to clearly point out the Am chord as the tonic >>> chord. The resolution of the bass note down a 5th, from E to A, is >>> also a strong resolution that makes the Am sound more like the >>> tonic chord, or the > tonal >>> center. >>> What does all this have to do with Harmonic Minor? What musicians >>> have learned to do is raise the G to G# in order to contrast the >>> key of Am > from >>> the key of C Major. Try this: play the C Major scale. Now play the >>> same scale with a G# in place of the G. Does the scale sound like >>> it wants to resolve to C any more? It really *should* sound as >>> though it correctly resolves to Am. The A Natural Minor scale with >>> a raised 7th note (G#) > gives >>> us the A Harmonic Minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. It sounds >>> rather exotic, with the interval between F and G#. That interval >>> also makes the > ear >>> want to hear the resolution from G# to A even more. >>> Dud has concocted his own version of this by labelling it the >>> Egyptian scale. It is *not* an Egyptian, and is certainly not >>> *the* Egyptian > scale. >>> It is rather perverse and insulting to even consider that Egyptian > culture >>> has one scale named after it that they all use. That would be like >>> trying > to >>> say that our Major scale (Do, Re, Mi, etc.) should be called the >>> "English scale". >>> A great example of the Harmonic Minor scale in use is Santana’s >>> "Smooth". > A >>> good portion of the tune uses the chord change Am–>E7. Guess what >>> scale Carlos uses over this chord progression? Not the Egyptian >>> scale, that’s > for >>> damned sure. >>> Not only is Dud totally off-base, he’s making shit up and causing >>> people > to >>> believe in wrong information. He then wonders why I think he’s an > asshole. >>> He’s not only misleading people, he *knows* that he’s misleading >>> people. >>> — >>> Mike C. >>> http://mikecrutcher.com >>> "As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I > thought >>> it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann >>>>> Miracles do happen >>>>> A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian >>>>> scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well >>>>> yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it > also >>>>> mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. >>>>> Sounded weird when i ran through it. Can any of you >>>>> knowledgeable people clarify the matter? Henning >>>> Yes, I can. I had been playing bouzouki for years, and I can tell >>>> you that those exotic scales are often used on the spur of the >>>> moment and > not >>>> after reading books and theory. They consist of intense >>>> halfsteps, like that: >>>> 0-1-5-6-7-9-10 >>>> If you want to learn from the masters, try to find recordings by >>>> Yovan Tsaus or Markos Vamvakaris.
Well, theoretical debate on whether it is right or wrong aside, many (myself included) relate all of the modes to their corresponding major scale because of the fingerings. I learned this from Jimmy Bruno’s essential fingerings book. The basic gist is that, if you look at a lot of books out there on scales, you’ll see that they have hundreds of scale fingering diagrams. It would take a player years and years, if ever, to memorize all of them. The way I learned was to simply work out specific, economical major scale fingerings, and then flat or sharpen certain notes within those scale fingerings in order to derive other scales, or even better, simply start and end the same major scale fingering at a different interval (the 2nd for Dorian, for example) in order to derive modes.
Response:
> I consider the D Dorian mode a scale, For this reason the Harmonic minor > scale can have modes
I definitely agree with you here about modes. Modes are individual scales. And definietly, starting the harmonic minor scale on different notes gives different scales, or modes. > I do not consider it the C major scale even though they sharenotes.
Definetly. And this is where I think some poeple disagreed when talking about keys, if e.g. sweet home alabama was written in d mixolydian, it is in the d mixolydian scale and therefore the key of D. Not, d mixolydian is a mode of g major, therefore its in the key of G. a general question to anyone who wants to answer it, Why should all modes have to realte to the major scale? Each mode has its own unique sound, i.e. they are differnt, and you use each one in its own separate way. Essentially, the ancient greeks made the major scale and discovered its modes. Why can that same train of thought not be applied to the harmonic minor scale? It is a scale, it sounds different from which note you start it from, becuase of the interval positions, so why not refer that as a mode with a seperate scale/identity in itself, like modes of the major? Modes of harmonic minor sounds completely reasnoble and theoretically correct. If you want to change/progress knowledge or be original you have to think outside what is commonly accepted. Aye, Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to think that > a > whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, etc.), > the > fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a > classification from someone and not necessarily those people themselves. > Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, Ionian, etc.) Most of > these > are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples that had > invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi => Dorian, > Lydisti > => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed those > scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their heritage, we > don’t > know. > Several other scales are named after groups of people including : > the hindu scale > the gypsy scale > the hungarian scale > etc. etc. etc. > The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s (rather good) > "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an introduction to scales, > including 2 > pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). > On p.125 he gives > Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. > This would give a step pattern of > W-m3-W-m3-W, > which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. > Definately NOT harmonic minor. > Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music of > Many > Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful and > would > highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on scales/tunings of > people > around the world. > (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). > Peace, > Christopher Roberts > >I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, as > usual. > >What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, > considering > >how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the Egyptian > >scale. > >To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate > western > >harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. The A > >Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C Major. That is > to > >say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), you > have > >the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. > >When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with Am7, > >Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing this, it > turns > >out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in the > >scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. When you > >start with the root note, A, and build a chord using every other note in > the > >scale, you get A, C, E, & G. That’s an Am7 chord. Well, when you use the > >notes of this scale, and build the chord starting on E, you end up with > E, > >G, B, & D, which is an Em7 chord. > >In order to clarify that we are in the key of Am, it has become standard > to > >make the V chord a dominant 7 chord. Edom7 would be spelled E, G#, B, and > D. > >Notice the difference between the Em7 and the E7: the difference between > G > >and G#. The E7 chord, with it’s G# and it’s D, wants to resolve to Am, as > >the G# wants to resolve to A. This is an important note to "tonicize" the > Am > >chord, meaning to clearly point out the Am chord as the tonic chord. The > >resolution of the bass note down a 5th, from E to A, is also a strong > >resolution that makes the Am sound more like the tonic chord, or the > tonal > >center. > >What does all this have to do with Harmonic Minor? What musicians have > >learned to do is raise the G to G# in order to contrast the key of Am > from > >the key of C Major. Try this: play the C Major scale. Now play the same > >scale with a G# in place of the G. Does the scale sound like it wants to > >resolve to C any more? It really *should* sound as though it correctly > >resolves to Am. The A Natural Minor scale with a raised 7th note (G#) > gives > >us the A Harmonic Minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. It sounds rather > >exotic, with the interval between F and G#. That interval also makes the > ear > >want to hear the resolution from G# to A even more. > >Dud has concocted his own version of this by labelling it the Egyptian > >scale. It is *not* an Egyptian, and is certainly not *the* Egyptian > scale. > >It is rather perverse and insulting to even consider that Egyptian > culture > >has one scale named after it that they all use. That would be like trying > to > >say that our Major scale (Do, Re, Mi, etc.) should be called the "English > >scale". > >A great example of the Harmonic Minor scale in use is Santana’s "Smooth". > A > >good portion of the tune uses the chord change Am–>E7. Guess what scale > >Carlos uses over this chord progression? Not the Egyptian scale, that’s > for > >damned sure. > >Not only is Dud totally off-base, he’s making shit up and causing people > to > >believe in wrong information. He then wonders why I think he’s an > asshole. > >He’s not only misleading people, he *knows* that he’s misleading people. > >– > >Mike C. > >http://mikecrutcher.com > >"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I > thought > >it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann > >> > Miracles do happen > >> > A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian > >> > scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well > >> > yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it > also > >> > mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. Sounded > >> > weird when i ran through it. Can any of you knowledgeable people > >> > clarify the matter? Henning > >> Yes, I can. I had been playing bouzouki for years, and I can tell you > >> that those exotic scales are often used on the spur of the moment and > not > >> after reading books and theory. They consist of intense halfsteps, like > >> that: > >> 0-1-5-6-7-9-10 > >> If you want to learn from the masters, try to find recordings by Yovan > >> Tsaus or Markos Vamvakaris.
Response:
Lon, One definately runs into the problem that some scales have multiple names, and that one finds different definitions for the same name. For example, That scale which Mike refers to as the double harmonic minor scale( = 1,2,b3,#4,5,b6,7)(=W-1/2-m3-1/2-1/2-m3-1/2) has also been called Hungarian Minor [1],[2], Hungarian gypsy minor [3], Hungarian [5], Gypsy Minor [5], Oriental minor [6]. i will refer to it as the Gypsy minor scale for this discussion ( and that’s what i’ve used elsewhere). Further [1],[4] has Double Harmonic defined as ( = 1,b2,3,4,5,b6,7), (=1/2-m3-1/2-W-1/2-m3-1/2), which is a mode of the gypsy minor scale. [1] also has this same scale listed as Gypsy, and Byzantine. [3] has it listed as Hungarian gypsy, and as Byzantine. A much more commonly used scale with multiple names is the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale (= 1,b2,3,4,5,b6,b7) (= 1/2-m3-1/2-W-1/2-W-W). [1] calls it Major Phrygian, Jewish, and Spanish. [3] calls it Spanish Gypsy. [7] calls it Spanish or Jewish. [8] calls it Spanish Phrygian. [9] calls it Mixolydian b9 b13. [10] calls it Phrygian Major. [11] calls it Mixolydian b9 b13, and dominant 7 (b9,b13). [1] also lists the harmonic minor scale as Mohammedan. As for names of modes of the harmonic minor scale… [10] lists the following names for the following modes of the harm.min. scale, I agree that these names are not generally known/used amongst most players but here they are in case someone wants something different than the 3rd mode of harm.min., etc.: W-1/2-W-W-1/2-m3-1/2 = Harmonic minor 1/2-W-W-1/2-m3-1/2-W = Locrian nat.6 W-W-1/2-m3-1/2-W-1/2 = Ionian augmented W-1/2-m3-1/2-W-1/2-W = Dorian #4 (overtone minor) 1/2-m3-1/2-W-1/2-W-W = Phrygian Major m3-1/2-W-1/2-W-W-1/2 = Lydian #9 1/2-W-1/2-W-W-1/2-m3 = Altered Dominant bb7 [11] lists pretty much the same names except it lists them as (in order): Harmonic minor, Locrian #6 (sic), Ionian #5, Dorian #4, Mixolydian b9 b13 (a.k.a. dominant 7 {b9,b13}), Lydian #2, and Altered no 7th. As for a Hungarian Scale… [1] has Hungarian minor (the gypsy minor scale described above), Hungarian major (= 1,#2,3,#4,5,6,b7)( = m3-1/2-W-1/2-W-1/2-W), and Hungarian gypsy (=1,2,b3,#4,5,b6,b7)(=W-1/2-m3-1/2-1/2-W-W)( a mode of Neapolitan minor) . [5] has the hungarian scale as the gypsy minor scale described above (it actually lists two names for the same scale).[3] also has (the above gypsy minor scale) listed as the hungarian gypsy minor scale [3] also lists a Hungarian Gypsy scale (=1,b2,3,4,5,b6,7) (=1/2-m3-1/2-W-1/2-m3-1/2), which it also has listed as Byzantine (this scale described above under Double harmonic scale). [3] has the Egyptian Scale listed the same as [1], being the mode of pentatonic major/pent.min. listed in my earlier post (W-m3-W-m3-W)(below) [1] also has the Pentatonic major scale listed as Mongolian. The Maqamat that i’ve seen (as used in various arabic musics) would require some sort of microtonal notation (such as half-sharps, and 3/4 sharps, etc.), and don’t appear connected to any pentatonic system. "There is no complete list of maqamat. The Cairo Congress presented a list of more than fifty maqamat from Egypt and Syria…", "… The scale of the maqam usually consists of seven pitches to the octave. The intervals between the degrees of the scale can be a quarter tone (rarely), a half-step, a three-quarter tone, or various forms of augmented tones such as 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 tones." [12] This can all get to be quite confusing, and maybe the best thing to do when describing a scale to someone else is to give a definition so as to reduce any confusion. Peace, Christopher Roberts Sources cited: 1.] "Scales and modes in the beginning" by Ron Middlebrook pps. 124-5 (1982) 2.] "The Guitar Handbook" by Ralph Denyer p.113 (1982) 3.] "The Guitar Cookbook" by Jesse Gress pps. 72-73 (2001) 4.] "The Complete Guitarist" by Richard Chapman p.153 (1993) 5.] "Nick Manoloff’s Spanish Guitar Method" by Nick Manoloff p.78 (1934) 6.] "Eck Method for Flute Book One" by Emil Eck p.45 (1941) 7.] "How to play Jazz and improvise, vol.1 , 6th ed." by Jamie Aebersold p.53-54 (1967,1992) 8.] "Ultimate Guitar" by Howard Johnstone p.44 (date unknown) 9.] "Jazz Theory" by Andrew Jaffe p.67 (1993) 10.] " The Advancing Guitarist" by Mick Goodrick p.35 (1987) 11.] "Jazz Guitar, Bebop and beyond" by Doug Munro pps.132-133 (2001) 12.] "Secular Classical Music in the Arabic Near East" by Joseph M. Pacholczyk from "Music of Many Cultures" by Elizabeth May (ed.) p.259 (1980) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I agree that modes are scales in themselves. However, Dud very obviously was > referring to the Harmonic Minor scale in his post from back then, which was > wrong (as usual). The Egyptian scale is not all that clear. There seems to > be a number of scales that are being called this. The most common one I can > see is what’s known as the "double harmonic minor" scale. In A minor, it > would be spelled A-B-C-D#-E-F-G#. I found a post on a message board: > "Anyway , I’m from egypt and I’ve seen some scales that sound WIERD to me > refered to as the egyptian scale or the arabic scale , while the "double > harmonic minor" & the "harmonic minor" for example are pretty common in old > traditional egyptian and arabic music … I don’t know what basis do they > use to name these exotic scales." > Sounds to me like the "Egyptian scale" is a misnomer. It’s *definitely* not > the harmonic minor scale that Dud was citing. I also am not in agreement > about the modes of the Harmonic Minor. It’s not common usage to name the > modes of the Harmonic Minor. There was a big thread about this at > rec.musicmakers.jazz recently, and no one seemed to use them nor did anyone > have names for the modes of Harmonic Minor. I believe it’s probably because > the scale has such a pull to the tonic that the modes are of dubious use. > — > Mike C. > http://mikecrutcher.com > "As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought > it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann > From what I remember, the Hungarian scale is actually a mode of the > Harmonic > Minor scale, and I have to disagree with Mike here. I consider the D > Dorian > mode a scale, I do not consider it the C major scale even though they > share > notes. For this reason the Harmonic minor scale can have modes, and the > just like the one Rookie named which is, I believe the 6th mode of the > harmonic minor. Whether one of the modes is called the Egyptian mode I do > not know. Perhaps this is another example of opinion, but I would like to > know if Mike feels that modes are not scale inclusive or just the harmonic > minor modes. > > While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to think > that > a > > whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, > etc.), > the > > fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a > > classification from someone and not necessarily those people themselves. > > Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, Ionian, etc.) Most of > these > > are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples that > had > > invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi => Dorian, > Lydisti > > => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed > those > > scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their heritage, we > don’t > > know. > > Several other scales are named after groups of people including : > > the hindu scale > > the gypsy scale > > the hungarian scale > > etc. etc. etc. > > The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s (rather > good) > > "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an introduction to scales, > including 2 > > pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). > > On p.125 he gives > > Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. > > This would give a step pattern of > > W-m3-W-m3-W, > > which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. > > Definately NOT harmonic minor. > > Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music of > Many > > Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful and > would > > highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on scales/tunings of > people > > around the world. > > (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). > > Peace, > > Christopher Roberts > > >I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, as > usual. > > >What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, > considering > > >how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the > Egyptian > > >scale. > > >To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate > western > > >harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. The A > > >Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C Major. That is > to > > >say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), you > have > > >the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. > > >When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with Am7, > > >Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing this, it > turns > > >out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in the > > >scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. When you > > >start with the root
… read more »
Response:
I agree that modes are scales in themselves. However, Dud very obviously was referring to the Harmonic Minor scale in his post from back then, which was wrong (as usual). The Egyptian scale is not all that clear. There seems to be a number of scales that are being called this. The most common one I can see is what’s known as the "double harmonic minor" scale. In A minor, it would be spelled A-B-C-D#-E-F-G#. I found a post on a message board: "Anyway , I’m from egypt and I’ve seen some scales that sound WIERD to me refered to as the egyptian scale or the arabic scale , while the "double harmonic minor" & the "harmonic minor" for example are pretty common in old traditional egyptian and arabic music … I don’t know what basis do they use to name these exotic scales." Sounds to me like the "Egyptian scale" is a misnomer. It’s *definitely* not the harmonic minor scale that Dud was citing. I also am not in agreement about the modes of the Harmonic Minor. It’s not common usage to name the modes of the Harmonic Minor. There was a big thread about this at rec.musicmakers.jazz recently, and no one seemed to use them nor did anyone have names for the modes of Harmonic Minor. I believe it’s probably because the scale has such a pull to the tonic that the modes are of dubious use. — Mike C. http://mikecrutcher.com "As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From what I remember, the Hungarian scale is actually a mode of the Harmonic > Minor scale, and I have to disagree with Mike here. I consider the D Dorian > mode a scale, I do not consider it the C major scale even though they share > notes. For this reason the Harmonic minor scale can have modes, and the > just like the one Rookie named which is, I believe the 6th mode of the > harmonic minor. Whether one of the modes is called the Egyptian mode I do > not know. Perhaps this is another example of opinion, but I would like to > know if Mike feels that modes are not scale inclusive or just the harmonic > minor modes. > While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to think that > a > whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, etc.), > the > fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a > classification from someone and not necessarily those people themselves. > Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, Ionian, etc.) Most of > these > are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples that had > invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi => Dorian, > Lydisti > => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed those > scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their heritage, we > don’t > know. > Several other scales are named after groups of people including : > the hindu scale > the gypsy scale > the hungarian scale > etc. etc. etc. > The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s (rather good) > "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an introduction to scales, > including 2 > pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). > On p.125 he gives > Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. > This would give a step pattern of > W-m3-W-m3-W, > which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. > Definately NOT harmonic minor. > Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music of > Many > Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful and > would > highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on scales/tunings of > people > around the world. > (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). > Peace, > Christopher Roberts > >I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, as > usual. > >What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, > considering > >how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the Egyptian > >scale. > >To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate > western > >harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. The A > >Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C Major. That is > to > >say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), you > have > >the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. > >When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with Am7, > >Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing this, it > turns > >out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in the > >scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. When you > >start with the root note, A, and build a chord using every other note in > the > >scale, you get A, C, E, & G. That’s an Am7 chord. Well, when you use the > >notes of this scale, and build the chord starting on E, you end up with > E, > >G, B, & D, which is an Em7 chord. > >In order to clarify that we are in the key of Am, it has become standard > to > >make the V chord a dominant 7 chord. Edom7 would be spelled E, G#, B, and > D. > >Notice the difference between the Em7 and the E7: the difference between > G > >and G#. The E7 chord, with it’s G# and it’s D, wants to resolve to Am, as > >the G# wants to resolve to A. This is an important note to "tonicize" the > Am > >chord, meaning to clearly point out the Am chord as the tonic chord. The > >resolution of the bass note down a 5th, from E to A, is also a strong > >resolution that makes the Am sound more like the tonic chord, or the > tonal > >center. > >What does all this have to do with Harmonic Minor? What musicians have > >learned to do is raise the G to G# in order to contrast the key of Am > from > >the key of C Major. Try this: play the C Major scale. Now play the same > >scale with a G# in place of the G. Does the scale sound like it wants to > >resolve to C any more? It really *should* sound as though it correctly > >resolves to Am. The A Natural Minor scale with a raised 7th note (G#) > gives > >us the A Harmonic Minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. It sounds rather > >exotic, with the interval between F and G#. That interval also makes the > ear > >want to hear the resolution from G# to A even more. > >Dud has concocted his own version of this by labelling it the Egyptian > >scale. It is *not* an Egyptian, and is certainly not *the* Egyptian > scale. > >It is rather perverse and insulting to even consider that Egyptian > culture > >has one scale named after it that they all use. That would be like trying > to > >say that our Major scale (Do, Re, Mi, etc.) should be called the "English > >scale". > >A great example of the Harmonic Minor scale in use is Santana’s "Smooth". > A > >good portion of the tune uses the chord change Am–>E7. Guess what scale > >Carlos uses over this chord progression? Not the Egyptian scale, that’s > for > >damned sure. > >Not only is Dud totally off-base, he’s making shit up and causing people > to > >believe in wrong information. He then wonders why I think he’s an > asshole. > >He’s not only misleading people, he *knows* that he’s misleading people. > >– > >Mike C. > >http://mikecrutcher.com > >"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I > thought > >it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> > Miracles do happen > >> > A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian > >> > scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well > >> > yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it > also > >> > mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. Sounded > >> > weird when i ran through it. Can any of you knowledgeable people > >> > clarify the matter? Henning > >> Yes, I can. I had been playing bouzouki for years, and I can tell you > >> that those exotic scales are often used on the spur of the moment and > not > >> after reading books and theory. They consist of intense halfsteps, like > >> that: > >> 0-1-5-6-7-9-10 > >> If you want to learn from the masters, try to find recordings by Yovan > >> Tsaus or Markos Vamvakaris.
Response:
From what I remember, the Hungarian scale is actually a mode of the Harmonic Minor scale, and I have to disagree with Mike here. I consider the D Dorian mode a scale, I do not consider it the C major scale even though they share notes. For this reason the Harmonic minor scale can have modes, and the just like the one Rookie named which is, I believe the 6th mode of the harmonic minor. Whether one of the modes is called the Egyptian mode I do not know. Perhaps this is another example of opinion, but I would like to know if Mike feels that modes are not scale inclusive or just the harmonic minor modes.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to think that a > whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, etc.), the > fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a > classification from someone and not necessarily those people themselves. > Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, Ionian, etc.) Most of these > are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples that had > invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi => Dorian, Lydisti > => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed those > scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their heritage, we don’t > know. > Several other scales are named after groups of people including : > the hindu scale > the gypsy scale > the hungarian scale > etc. etc. etc. > The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s (rather good) > "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an introduction to scales, including 2 > pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). > On p.125 he gives > Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. > This would give a step pattern of > W-m3-W-m3-W, > which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. > Definately NOT harmonic minor. > Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music of Many > Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful and would > highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on scales/tunings of people > around the world. > (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). > Peace, > Christopher Roberts >I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, as usual. >What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, considering >how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the Egyptian >scale. >To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate western >harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. The A >Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C Major. That is to >say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), you have >the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. >When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with Am7, >Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing this, it turns >out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in the >scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. When you >start with the root note, A, and build a chord using every other note in the >scale, you get A, C, E, & G. That’s an Am7 chord. Well, when you use the >notes of this scale, and build the chord starting on E, you end up with E, >G, B, & D, which is an Em7 chord. >In order to clarify that we are in the key of Am, it has become standard to >make the V chord a dominant 7 chord. Edom7 would be spelled E, G#, B, and D. >Notice the difference between the Em7 and the E7: the difference between G >and G#. The E7 chord, with it’s G# and it’s D, wants to resolve to Am, as >the G# wants to resolve to A. This is an important note to "tonicize" the Am >chord, meaning to clearly point out the Am chord as the tonic chord. The >resolution of the bass note down a 5th, from E to A, is also a strong >resolution that makes the Am sound more like the tonic chord, or the tonal >center. >What does all this have to do with Harmonic Minor? What musicians have >learned to do is raise the G to G# in order to contrast the key of Am from >the key of C Major. Try this: play the C Major scale. Now play the same >scale with a G# in place of the G. Does the scale sound like it wants to >resolve to C any more? It really *should* sound as though it correctly >resolves to Am. The A Natural Minor scale with a raised 7th note (G#) gives >us the A Harmonic Minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. It sounds rather >exotic, with the interval between F and G#. That interval also makes the ear >want to hear the resolution from G# to A even more. >Dud has concocted his own version of this by labelling it the Egyptian >scale. It is *not* an Egyptian, and is certainly not *the* Egyptian scale. >It is rather perverse and insulting to even consider that Egyptian culture >has one scale named after it that they all use. That would be like trying to >say that our Major scale (Do, Re, Mi, etc.) should be called the "English >scale". >A great example of the Harmonic Minor scale in use is Santana’s "Smooth". A >good portion of the tune uses the chord change Am–>E7. Guess what scale >Carlos uses over this chord progression? Not the Egyptian scale, that’s for >damned sure. >Not only is Dud totally off-base, he’s making shit up and causing people to >believe in wrong information. He then wonders why I think he’s an asshole. >He’s not only misleading people, he *knows* that he’s misleading people. >– >Mike C. >http://mikecrutcher.com >"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought >it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann >> > Miracles do happen >> > A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian >> > scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well >> > yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it also >> > mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. Sounded >> > weird when i ran through it. Can any of you knowledgeable people >> > clarify the matter? Henning >> Yes, I can. I had been playing bouzouki for years, and I can tell you >> that those exotic scales are often used on the spur of the moment and not >> after reading books and theory. They consist of intense halfsteps, like >> that: >> 0-1-5-6-7-9-10 >> If you want to learn from the masters, try to find recordings by Yovan >> Tsaus or Markos Vamvakaris.
Response:
: Your right. The hungarian scale is also good – Yngwie uses it. But the : bottom line is, if you want the EGYPTIAN scale, your best off going to : the source…POWERSLAVE Wow, I’m now convinced that Todd’s music theory knowledge is based on Album/CD cover art. If you take a look at the cover of POWERSLAVE: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000BKDW.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg you can clearly see where the Egyptian scale reference is coming from. -Pugs "You’re just jealous because the voices only talk to me!" To e-mail, remove dot thirty-four.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to think that a > whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, etc.), the > fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a > classification from someone and not necessarily those people themselves. > Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, Ionian, etc.) Most of these > are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples that had > invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi => Dorian, Lydisti > => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed those > scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their heritage, we don’t > know. > Several other scales are named after groups of people including : > the hindu scale > the gypsy scale > the hungarian scale > etc. etc. etc. > The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s (rather good) > "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an introduction to scales, including 2 > pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). > On p.125 he gives > Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. > This would give a step pattern of > W-m3-W-m3-W, > which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. > Definately NOT harmonic minor. > Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music of Many > Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful and would > highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on scales/tunings of people > around the world. > (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). > Peace, > Christopher Roberts
Dude, Your right. The hungarian scale is also good – Yngwie uses it. But the bottom line is, if you want the EGYPTIAN scale, your best off going to the source…POWERSLAVE Rock On, Todd LaRoc http://profiles.yahoo.com/toddlaroc
Response:
While i completely agree that it could be a demeaning thing to think that a whole people only express themselves in one way (through one scale, etc.), the fact is that some scales are named after groups of people. It’s a classification from someone and not necessarily those people themselves. Consider the names of the "church" modes (dorian, Ionian, etc.) Most of these are translations of the greek names for various tribes of peoples that had invaded what we now call Greece. (Iasti => Ionian, Doristi => Dorian, Lydisti => Lydian, etc. ) These were people who may or may not have claimed those scales/tunings (Iasti, doristi, lydisti, etc.) were their heritage, we don’t know. Several other scales are named after groups of people including : the hindu scale the gypsy scale the hungarian scale etc. etc. etc. The curious reader might pick up a copy of Ron Middlebrook’s (rather good) "Scales & Modes – in the beginning" for an introduction to scales, including 2 pages on "exotic" scales (p.124 and 125). On p.125 he gives Egyptian as C,D,F,G,Bb,C. This would give a step pattern of W-m3-W-m3-W, which would make that a mode of Pentatonic Major/Pentatonic Minor. Definately NOT harmonic minor. Though i’m no expert on ethnomusicology, i’ve found the book "Music of Many Cultures – an introduction" by Elizabeth May (editor) to be useful and would highly recommend it to any interested in reading up on scales/tunings of people around the world. (no Egyptian scale listed in it by the way). Peace, Christopher Roberts – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, as usual. >What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, considering >how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the Egyptian >scale. >To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate western >harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. The A >Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C Major. That is to >say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), you have >the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. >When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with Am7, >Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing this, it turns >out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in the >scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. When you >start with the root note, A, and build a chord using every other note in the >scale, you get A, C, E, & G. That’s an Am7 chord. Well, when you use the >notes of this scale, and build the chord starting on E, you end up with E, >G, B, & D, which is an Em7 chord. >In order to clarify that we are in the key of Am, it has become standard to >make the V chord a dominant 7 chord. Edom7 would be spelled E, G#, B, and D. >Notice the difference between the Em7 and the E7: the difference between G >and G#. The E7 chord, with it’s G# and it’s D, wants to resolve to Am, as >the G# wants to resolve to A. This is an important note to "tonicize" the Am >chord, meaning to clearly point out the Am chord as the tonic chord. The >resolution of the bass note down a 5th, from E to A, is also a strong >resolution that makes the Am sound more like the tonic chord, or the tonal >center. >What does all this have to do with Harmonic Minor? What musicians have >learned to do is raise the G to G# in order to contrast the key of Am from >the key of C Major. Try this: play the C Major scale. Now play the same >scale with a G# in place of the G. Does the scale sound like it wants to >resolve to C any more? It really *should* sound as though it correctly >resolves to Am. The A Natural Minor scale with a raised 7th note (G#) gives >us the A Harmonic Minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. It sounds rather >exotic, with the interval between F and G#. That interval also makes the ear >want to hear the resolution from G# to A even more. >Dud has concocted his own version of this by labelling it the Egyptian >scale. It is *not* an Egyptian, and is certainly not *the* Egyptian scale. >It is rather perverse and insulting to even consider that Egyptian culture >has one scale named after it that they all use. That would be like trying to >say that our Major scale (Do, Re, Mi, etc.) should be called the "English >scale". >A great example of the Harmonic Minor scale in use is Santana’s "Smooth". A >good portion of the tune uses the chord change Am–>E7. Guess what scale >Carlos uses over this chord progression? Not the Egyptian scale, that’s for >damned sure. >Not only is Dud totally off-base, he’s making shit up and causing people to >believe in wrong information. He then wonders why I think he’s an asshole. >He’s not only misleading people, he *knows* that he’s misleading people. >– >Mike C. >http://mikecrutcher.com >"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought >it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann > > Miracles do happen > > A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian > > scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well > > yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it also > > mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. Sounded > > weird when i ran through it. Can any of you knowledgeable people > > clarify the matter? Henning > Yes, I can. I had been playing bouzouki for years, and I can tell you > that those exotic scales are often used on the spur of the moment and not > after reading books and theory. They consist of intense halfsteps, like > that: > 0-1-5-6-7-9-10 > If you want to learn from the masters, try to find recordings by Yovan > Tsaus or Markos Vamvakaris.
Response:
Miracles do happen A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it also mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. Sounded weird when i ran through it. Can any of you knowledgeable people clarify the matter? Henning
Response:
I’m the one who promptly stated that he was wrong. He *was* wrong, as usual. What he was referring to was clearly the Harmonic Minor scale, considering how he described it. The Harmonic Minor scale is not called the Egyptian scale. To clarify, the Harmonic Minor scale is a scale used to accomodate western harmony in a minor key. I’ll use the key of A minor for example. The A Natural Minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode of C Major. That is to say, to play the C Major scale from the 6th note of the scale (A), you have the A Aeolian scale, otherwise known as the A Natural Minor scale. When you spell the chords built from this scale, you end up with Am7, Bm7(b5), CMaj, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, & G7. For those new to doing this, it turns out that way because of the half steps and whole steps involved in the scale, including the B–>C half step, and the E–>F half step. When you start with the root note, A, and build a chord using every other note in the scale, you get A, C, E, & G. That’s an Am7 chord. Well, when you use the notes of this scale, and build the chord starting on E, you end up with E, G, B, & D, which is an Em7 chord. In order to clarify that we are in the key of Am, it has become standard to make the V chord a dominant 7 chord. Edom7 would be spelled E, G#, B, and D. Notice the difference between the Em7 and the E7: the difference between G and G#. The E7 chord, with it’s G# and it’s D, wants to resolve to Am, as the G# wants to resolve to A. This is an important note to "tonicize" the Am chord, meaning to clearly point out the Am chord as the tonic chord. The resolution of the bass note down a 5th, from E to A, is also a strong resolution that makes the Am sound more like the tonic chord, or the tonal center. What does all this have to do with Harmonic Minor? What musicians have learned to do is raise the G to G# in order to contrast the key of Am from the key of C Major. Try this: play the C Major scale. Now play the same scale with a G# in place of the G. Does the scale sound like it wants to resolve to C any more? It really *should* sound as though it correctly resolves to Am. The A Natural Minor scale with a raised 7th note (G#) gives us the A Harmonic Minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. It sounds rather exotic, with the interval between F and G#. That interval also makes the ear want to hear the resolution from G# to A even more. Dud has concocted his own version of this by labelling it the Egyptian scale. It is *not* an Egyptian, and is certainly not *the* Egyptian scale. It is rather perverse and insulting to even consider that Egyptian culture has one scale named after it that they all use. That would be like trying to say that our Major scale (Do, Re, Mi, etc.) should be called the "English scale". A great example of the Harmonic Minor scale in use is Santana’s "Smooth". A good portion of the tune uses the chord change Am–>E7. Guess what scale Carlos uses over this chord progression? Not the Egyptian scale, that’s for damned sure. Not only is Dud totally off-base, he’s making shit up and causing people to believe in wrong information. He then wonders why I think he’s an asshole. He’s not only misleading people, he *knows* that he’s misleading people. — Mike C. http://mikecrutcher.com "As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought it was the vehicle I used to express my life" – Herbie Mann
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Miracles do happen > A while back our esteemed friend dud laroc mentioned an egyptian > scale, and someone else promply stated that he was wrong. Well > yesterday I reread one of my guitarbooks (by Alvaro Pinto) and it also > mentioned an egyptian scale. Seems to be mostly halfsteps. Sounded > weird when i ran through it. Can any of you knowledgeable people > clarify the matter? Henning > Yes, I can. I had been playing bouzouki for years, and I can tell you > that those exotic scales are often used on the spur of the moment and not > after reading books and theory. They consist of intense halfsteps, like > that: > 0-1-5-6-7-9-10 > If you want to learn from the masters, try to find recordings by Yovan > Tsaus or Markos Vamvakaris.
Response:
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