Theory: Overtones, Undertones, Vibrations, and Voicing
Question:
– Mike C. "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." –Friedrich Nietzsche
> It’s just that your title is so broad, yet the > content and commentary seems so narrow. > So I really felt obligated to say something. > You seem to want the unreasonable: you want me to explain complex physics > to beginners who may neither understand nor care about such things. My post > had two points: > – Strings will vibrate even when you don’t play them, and to sound better > you must mute them.
Then you should say it that way. Your post was far too over-the-head. I found myself wanting to skip over it myself, and I understand this stuff. > – Many (yes many, speaking from my experience) musicians prefer root-position > or second inversion for their chords so don’t be surprised if they gripe > when you play a first inversion chord.
I’ve never heard anyone complain about which inversion of a chord I’m playing. > The whole point was for beginners to understand why pros may sound better > than them even though they’re playing correctly. I was trying to help them > avoid discouragement when facing such issues. Yes, I admittedly used overly > generalized and simplistic terminology. I’m not going to explain to a two-year-old > the physics of being struck by a car; I’m going to tell him to stay out of > the street.
But you didn’t do that. You went into "overtones", which is probably a little more advanced than most people ever even get into, and "undertones", which is suspect as a term, anyway. > So, I’m sorry if you do not approve of such generalizations, but I’m not > going to write an essay here on a subject that could fill an entire book. > I think I got my point across, and that’s all I was trying to do. I’m certainly > not going to debate the whole issue. I’ll leave that to those who care enough > about it to do so.
That’s the point. An essay of that kind of subject is certainly inappropriate here. I’m not saying that beginners can’t understand this type of thing; that would be elitist. What I am saying is that most people who are starting to learn guitar do not need this type of information for a long time into their development, if ever. I’m going to disagree with you about the 1st inversion conflict. First inversion is fine, until it gets below a certain interval limit, and I’d hard pressed to find much of anyone playing first inversion chords, never mind beginners. > My post stands as written, and I stand behind the advice and the way it was > presented. If people really care enough to learn more, my generalizations > certainly won’t be a hindrance. For the others, they now know why strings > vibrate and why voicings sound different. I don’t see that as a bad thing. > If you do, then I suggest you post a more accurate explanation for the beginners > instead of directing your response at me.
I don’t think they do. I certainly didn’t get that out of your post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And as for offense, none taken. Your points are valid. I simply disagree > with them in the context of this newsgroup.
Response:
> It’s just that your title is so broad, yet the > content and commentary seems so narrow. > So I really felt obligated to say something.
You seem to want the unreasonable: you want me to explain complex physics to beginners who may neither understand nor care about such things. My post had two points: – Strings will vibrate even when you don’t play them, and to sound better you must mute them. – Many (yes many, speaking from my experience) musicians prefer root-position or second inversion for their chords so don’t be surprised if they gripe when you play a first inversion chord. The whole point was for beginners to understand why pros may sound better than them even though they’re playing correctly. I was trying to help them avoid discouragement when facing such issues. Yes, I admittedly used overly generalized and simplistic terminology. I’m not going to explain to a two-year-old the physics of being struck by a car; I’m going to tell him to stay out of the street. So, I’m sorry if you do not approve of such generalizations, but I’m not going to write an essay here on a subject that could fill an entire book. I think I got my point across, and that’s all I was trying to do. I’m certainly not going to debate the whole issue. I’ll leave that to those who care enough about it to do so. My post stands as written, and I stand behind the advice and the way it was presented. If people really care enough to learn more, my generalizations certainly won’t be a hindrance. For the others, they now know why strings vibrate and why voicings sound different. I don’t see that as a bad thing. If you do, then I suggest you post a more accurate explanation for the beginners instead of directing your response at me. And as for offense, none taken. Your points are valid. I simply disagree with them in the context of this newsgroup.
Response:
Good post. I play bass (also). Often the vibrations from the bass will get the snare drum going or even the tom toms. Pt
Response:
well, I’d be a little more cautious about making such generalizations as the many you have done herein > not all voicings are created equal. Root-position chords sound the > best, and second inversions sound pretty good as well. Other inversions > do not sound as good and are generally avoided unless there is a good
reason for them (such as a moving bass line). all inversions are "good", all sound "good" in the right context, we use "all" of them, "all" the time. > In fact, many guitarists will place > the third of the chord as high up as possible (which is why they will often > mute the 5th string in a G chord) so its overtones will not cause *dissonance* > in the audible frequencies. Of course there are exceptions to all this, > but it’s generally the case.
many? > So keep this in mind when someone tells you to play a D chord and they complain > when you put the F# in the bass. Technically that is a D/F# and not a D > chord to someone concerned about overtones.
It’s still a D chord, first inversion D chord. Scott, most of the people here (beginners) don’t even know what a first inversion triad _is_ and already you’re telling them they are "lessor" chords, less desireable, less pretty, less useful (or something). First you say Root position triads are "the best" but then you say "most" guitarists don’t really believe that because (according to you) they avoid having the third where it should be (to be a root position triad) and instead use a 10th interval (the 3rd in the next highest octave)? So by your reconing and perscriptions only root position triads are good but then only if you use Major and minor 10ths instead of thirds?! and "undertones" ?! You’re mudding the water, for beginners at least. I have to assume you’re talking about exciting some partial by octave (lower octave) and thus are talking about sympathetic vibration again, but "undertones" is dicey terminology particularly when grouped together with "overtones", i.e harmonic series partials. The term and concept of "undertones" has had a long history of heated debate and as far as I know it’s still currently a disproved and unscientific or unfounded idea. There are people on the internet hawking the notion of undertones again, and for all I know they _could_ be right, but nevertheless, it’s not "standard" physics nor theory-of-music stuff. perhaps the main thing people have to remember is that _IF_ they’re playing an overdriven or otherwise _artificially processed_ *electric guitar*, and a hollow or semi hollow electric guitar in particular, they "might" eventually factor that in to their preferred voicings (e.g. more open, less close, less mud). The point is electric guitar is _not_ "natural" sound, not natural harmonics, not natural "sympathetics", signal components are filtered and processed and reprocessed and _artificially_ amplified, sustained, suppressed, modified, facsimiled, you have both sympathetic and forced resonance as well, room acoustics, etc. We aren’t "really" in control at that point anyway! You couldn’t possibly keep track of all the interactions and processing factors that are taking place at any given moment. Debating the relative dissonance/consonance of harmonic "third" intervals has very a long history. At this stage of the game if we’re going to return to the days of saying that thirds are "dissonant" intervals, to be avoided, then we may as well just play "power chords", 5ths, 4ths and octaves, (a.k.a. the medieval "trine" of consonance) and be done with it. Combining melody lines, voicing chords, and stringing them together _is_ an art, is THE art of harmony, and while the things you bring up _are_ in the picture, they at minimum "jump the gun" (in a beginner forum), generalize too much, and then even their accuracy is questionable (at any level of proficiency or experience), me thinks. and Scott, I honestly don’t mean to "jump you" here. As I said, the things you bring up _are_ in the picture. I don’t mean to discourage you from posting about such topics. It’s just that your title is so broad, yet the content and commentary seems so narrow. So I really felt obligated to say something. I hope you understand, forgive, and continue to contribute. thanks Roger
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I was in high school, we saw a film of a bridge that was destroyed by > a minor windstorm. The metal used for the bridge vibrated at the same frequency > as the wind, which caused a tremendous feedback loop until the bridge literally > tore itself apart. > What does this have to do with guitar? Everything. The whole point of a > guitar is that the strings vibrate at certain frequencies, but that means > that ANYTHING ELSE THAT VIBRATES AT THOSE FRQUENCIES WILL VIBRATE AS WELL. > This is called a *sympathetic vibration*. When you pluck a guitar string, > its vibration (in the simplest terms) contains multiple frequencies. These > frequencies are regular intervals above (called overtones) and below (called > undertones) the "main" frequency. If these overtones and undertones match > the frequency of an open guitar string, that string will vibrate. > Beginners don’t worry about much this, but better guitarists mute strings > to prevent sympathetic vibrations. That’s why a guitarist may look like > he’s using all his fingers even if he’s only playing one note. It’s essential > to a pleasing sound. So you may be playing everything perfectly but still > not sound good. This is something to keep in mind if you get discouraged–it > may not be you or the guitar but simply a necessary adjustment of your technique. > Overtones and undertones have another effect in music. We hear them subconsciously, > so it affects how music sounds even if we can’t pinpoint the cause. In fact, > if a chord SEEMS like it should sound good but doesn’t, overtones are probably > the reason. This plays a major role in chord *voicing*. > Voicing means how a chord is "stacked" (which note is on bottom, top, etc.). > Thus, a G chord has the notes G-B-D but it may be voiced G-B-D-G-B-G or > G-D-G-B-G or D-G-B-G or any number of other ways. Putting a chord note other > than the root (main note of the chord) as the bottom note is known as an > *inversion*. Inversions are notated with the chord note, followed by a slash, > followed by the bass note, such as C/E. (These are also called "slash chords".) > Inversions are numbered, such that putting the first note above the root > (which would be the third of the chord) as the bottom note is called first > inversion, second inversion has the fifth as the bottom note, and third inversion > has the seventh (in a seventh chord). > Undertones and especially overtones affect how the voicing sounds, which > means not all voicings are created equal. Root-position chords sound the > best, and second inversions sound pretty good as well. Other inversions > do not sound as good and are generally avoided unless there is a good reason > for them (such as a moving bass line). In fact, many guitarists will place > the third of the chord as high up as possible (which is why they will often > mute the 5th string in a G chord) so its overtones will not cause *dissonance* > in the audible frequencies. Of course there are exceptions to all this, > but it’s generally the case. > So keep this in mind when someone tells you to play a D chord and they complain > when you put the F# in the bass. Technically that is a D/F# and not a D > chord to someone concerned about overtones.
Response:
When I was in high school, we saw a film of a bridge that was destroyed by a minor windstorm. The metal used for the bridge vibrated at the same frequency as the wind, which caused a tremendous feedback loop until the bridge literally tore itself apart. What does this have to do with guitar? Everything. The whole point of a guitar is that the strings vibrate at certain frequencies, but that means that ANYTHING ELSE THAT VIBRATES AT THOSE FRQUENCIES WILL VIBRATE AS WELL. This is called a *sympathetic vibration*. When you pluck a guitar string, its vibration (in the simplest terms) contains multiple frequencies. These frequencies are regular intervals above (called overtones) and below (called undertones) the "main" frequency. If these overtones and undertones match the frequency of an open guitar string, that string will vibrate. Beginners don’t worry about much this, but better guitarists mute strings to prevent sympathetic vibrations. That’s why a guitarist may look like he’s using all his fingers even if he’s only playing one note. It’s essential to a pleasing sound. So you may be playing everything perfectly but still not sound good. This is something to keep in mind if you get discouraged–it may not be you or the guitar but simply a necessary adjustment of your technique. Overtones and undertones have another effect in music. We hear them subconsciously, so it affects how music sounds even if we can’t pinpoint the cause. In fact, if a chord SEEMS like it should sound good but doesn’t, overtones are probably the reason. This plays a major role in chord *voicing*. Voicing means how a chord is "stacked" (which note is on bottom, top, etc.). Thus, a G chord has the notes G-B-D but it may be voiced G-B-D-G-B-G or G-D-G-B-G or D-G-B-G or any number of other ways. Putting a chord note other than the root (main note of the chord) as the bottom note is known as an *inversion*. Inversions are notated with the chord note, followed by a slash, followed by the bass note, such as C/E. (These are also called "slash chords".) Inversions are numbered, such that putting the first note above the root (which would be the third of the chord) as the bottom note is called first inversion, second inversion has the fifth as the bottom note, and third inversion has the seventh (in a seventh chord). Undertones and especially overtones affect how the voicing sounds, which means not all voicings are created equal. Root-position chords sound the best, and second inversions sound pretty good as well. Other inversions do not sound as good and are generally avoided unless there is a good reason for them (such as a moving bass line). In fact, many guitarists will place the third of the chord as high up as possible (which is why they will often mute the 5th string in a G chord) so its overtones will not cause *dissonance* in the audible frequencies. Of course there are exceptions to all this, but it’s generally the case. So keep this in mind when someone tells you to play a D chord and they complain when you put the F# in the bass. Technically that is a D/F# and not a D chord to someone concerned about overtones.
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