life after scales
Question:
> Good example David. I have to be careful, because I am not the worlds > master of theory myself being self taught. You, as I have seen in several > posts have a trained understanding of theory that i have never really tried > to achieve. I am glad you chimed in here because my intention was to get > the ball rolling.
I’m mostly self-taught as well. I got hung up on learning modes a while back and, although I’m glad I did (it’s a good way of learning the fretboard) it didn’t really lead me where I thought it was going to lead me. I don’t think modes are a useful thing for beginners to concentrate on too much (this is alt.guitar.beginner), many guitarists end up thinking that they’re playing modes when they’re just playing positionally. Far more useful is to learn the major scale and to use it to move between chord tones.
Response:
Both Dave and Lon wrote some great stuff which I would also like to add to. I’ve come to my own conclusion about the modes which may or may not be right, but here it is anyways. Guitar players have 3 general uses for the modes. 1. as 7 basic finger patterns. This is the most used way. i.e. G lydian This is a finger pattern for the G lydian mode. There are 6 other common patterns for the other modes. 2. As complete tonal centers. Play the chords Am – D over and over and then end on Am. Sound nice, but what key are you in? If it isn’t A major or A minor, then you have to be in something else. These chords belong to G major, but does anything center around G? No! The center note of this change is A. The best explanation is that this is a chord change that has the notes of the G major scale but centers around the Am chord. Therefore the tonality is A dorian. (It’s hard to explain what I mean when I say what the "center" note or "tonality". I’m just referring to the note that everything seems to be musically attracted to, if that makes any more sense?) Fleetwood Mac had a popular song called "Dreams" which basically consisted of F – G repeated. They ended and started this song on an F chord. Play a melody in F major (or minor) and it will song wrong. Play a melody in C major and it sounds great. This song is in F lydian which means the center note is F but the scale notes are C major. To sum this section up, you are taking a song using the notes of a major key (say key of C) and centering around a different note (like F as in the above example). This centering is achieved through repetition and starting and end phrases with this note (or chord) to get a modal tonality. 3. as temporary tonal centers Play the progression C / / / Dm / / / E m / / / F / / / C This song is in the key of C. It starts and ends on C. C is the center. But what happens when you are soloing (or playing a melody) over the Dm chord. For the second bar of this tune the Dm chord becomes a temporary tonal center for the melody. In other words, you would be in D dorian for the second bar of this tune. A similar thing happens for the other chords. When soloing over Em you would be playing E phrygian. F would be F Lydian. Even though you could play your whole solo at the 5th fret in the A aeolian "mode", just because the chords change, your thinking has to change also. When the Dm chord is played, you have to think of a melody that works around the Dm chord, but still is in the key of C. The same goes for the others. Most people play the modes like this and don’t even know it. To sum up this part, you have this big tonal center that a song is in (like the key of C like the above example), but every chord has it’s own little temporary tonal center that you have to respect. The example progression is in the key of C major, but during the F chord for a bar you have to think of centering around F, but still play the notes of the C major scale. — Ron Lukiv http://web.cuug.ab.ca/~lukivr/
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am sort of surprised a couple of the other regulars didn’t take you to > task. Please don’t take this wrong, rather take it constructively. You do > not have an okay foundation in theory. A song in the key of G major uses > the G Ionian scale. A song in the key of G minor uses the G Aeolian scale. > This is in simplistic terms. The term key is often used interchangeably > with the term tonal center, or the note the song or section resolves to, but > is actually short for "key signature" which is the set of sharps or flats > that appear at the beginning of a piece of sheet music. When music started > evolving in to a more modal format the key signature became more difficult. > Usually a song say in G Mixolydian will have a key signature of G major and > every time the 7th is played the accidental symbol will appear. Rather > awkward when there are two or three alterations. You do not play A Dorian > over a G major song, because the notes are referenced to G not to A and > hence the scale is still G Ionian. The two scales have the same notes you > know. So If you play a chord progression with the chords G major C major > and D major that resolves to G then you are playing a song in G Ionian. If > you play a D minor chord instead then you are playing a G mixolydian.
Modal theory is almost entirely misused by guitarists. Most will never use modes, but think that, when they play in G major over an A minor chord, they are playing in A dorian. Completely wrong, you are playing in G major over an A minor chord and that’s it. There’s a lot of deception goes on in tutorial books where they include a degenerate form of modal theory as a space filler. Hey, it sounds impressive to say you’re going from D dorian to G mixolydian to C ionian rather than saying you’re playing in C major. Where music is genuinely modal, the key signature is not neccessarily related to the root note in the standard major/minor way. Take "So What" by Miles Davis. This tune uses 16 bars of D dorian, followed by 8 bars of Eb dorian, ending with 8 bars of D dorian. It is usually notated with no sharps or flats in the key signature, using accidentals for the Eb dorian section.
Response:
Good example David. I have to be careful, because I am not the worlds master of theory myself being self taught. You, as I have seen in several posts have a trained understanding of theory that i have never really tried to achieve. I am glad you chimed in here because my intention was to get the ball rolling.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am sort of surprised a couple of the other regulars didn’t take you to > task. Please don’t take this wrong, rather take it constructively. You do > not have an okay foundation in theory. A song in the key of G major uses > the G Ionian scale. A song in the key of G minor uses the G Aeolian scale. > This is in simplistic terms. The term key is often used interchangeably > with the term tonal center, or the note the song or section resolves to, but > is actually short for "key signature" which is the set of sharps or flats > that appear at the beginning of a piece of sheet music. When music started > evolving in to a more modal format the key signature became more difficult. > Usually a song say in G Mixolydian will have a key signature of G major and > every time the 7th is played the accidental symbol will appear. Rather > awkward when there are two or three alterations. You do not play A Dorian > over a G major song, because the notes are referenced to G not to A and > hence the scale is still G Ionian. The two scales have the same notes you > know. So If you play a chord progression with the chords G major C major > and D major that resolves to G then you are playing a song in G Ionian. If > you play a D minor chord instead then you are playing a G mixolydian. > Modal theory is almost entirely misused by guitarists. Most will never > use modes, but think that, when they play in G major over an A minor > chord, they are playing in A dorian. Completely wrong, you are playing > in G major over an A minor chord and that’s it. There’s a lot of > deception goes on in tutorial books where they include a degenerate > form of modal theory as a space filler. Hey, it sounds impressive to > say you’re going from D dorian to G mixolydian to C ionian rather than > saying you’re playing in C major. > Where music is genuinely modal, the key signature is not neccessarily > related to the root note in the standard major/minor way. Take "So > What" by Miles Davis. This tune uses 16 bars of D dorian, followed by > 8 bars of Eb dorian, ending with 8 bars of D dorian. It is usually > notated with no sharps or flats in the key signature, using > accidentals for the Eb dorian section.
Response:
>now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds >like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next >step and make the scales come to life and make a melody.
Well since you will be using your modes quite a bit, it helps to learn them and feel comfortable in different keys. Key of G is kind of common in R&R and you can do quite a bit in the Dorian mode alone. It gets real tricky when playin in sharped keys if you’re looking for a challenge. But it sounds to me like you’re getting bored with your leads. It also sounds to me like you really can’t play what you feel. If that’s the case, then I would say that you have a timing problem. I respond to these newsgroups all the time preaching the same thing about timing but you might be surprised how much it plays a part when playing lead guitar. It’s hard to beat the rut of playing consistant 16th and 32nd notes unless you are using timing. So do this, next time you play behind your background music, make sure that you are tapping your foot to the beat of the rythem. Then try playing lead. If you haven’t done this in the past, tapping your foot consistantly may be difficult at first, but it may prove to be the best thing you’ve ever done for yourself.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > okay…this may have been posted before, but i don’t have the patients to flip > through all the posts. so bear with me if i repeat a question. > after you’ve learned all the scales or even a good portion of them, like say > all the modes Ionian – locrian. and you have an okay foundation in theory like > say the song is in the key of G, and you know that you can use the scales: > G – Ionian > A – Dorian > B- Phrygian > C – Lydian > D – mixolydian > E- aeolian > F# – locrian > now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds > like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next > step and make the scales come to life and make a melody. like i can solo, my > hands are fast enough…i do it in my band now…but i don’t wanna be Kerry > King anymore..i wanna play in key, but trying to stay in key and use the scales > i’m a bit more hindered, like i can pull off and hammer on and bend all day > with in the scale, but it sounds corny…can someone help me out? > And the trace of shadows still remains. > www.traceofshadows.com
Keep practicing them, in thirds (ie. 1, 3, 2, 5, 3, 6, 5, 7, etc.) fourths, practice chord tones as well, then forget about them. Internalise the sounds so you can sing good solos over the backing and play it back on the guitar without actively thinking "scales". You need to know the available notes, so you need to practice scales, but if you think "scales" your solo will sound like "scales".
Response:
I am sort of surprised a couple of the other regulars didn’t take you to task. Please don’t take this wrong, rather take it constructively. You do not have an okay foundation in theory. A song in the key of G major uses the G Ionian scale. A song in the key of G minor uses the G Aeolian scale. This is in simplistic terms. The term key is often used interchangeably with the term tonal center, or the note the song or section resolves to, but is actually short for "key signature" which is the set of sharps or flats that appear at the beginning of a piece of sheet music. When music started evolving in to a more modal format the key signature became more difficult. Usually a song say in G Mixolydian will have a key signature of G major and every time the 7th is played the accidental symbol will appear. Rather awkward when there are two or three alterations. You do not play A Dorian over a G major song, because the notes are referenced to G not to A and hence the scale is still G Ionian. The two scales have the same notes you know. So If you play a chord progression with the chords G major C major and D major that resolves to G then you are playing a song in G Ionian. If you play a D minor chord instead then you are playing a G mixolydian. I hope this is enough to get you to go back and look again.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> okay…this may have been posted before, but i don’t have the patients to flip > through all the posts. so bear with me if i repeat a question. > after you’ve learned all the scales or even a good portion of them, like say > all the modes Ionian – locrian. and you have an okay foundation in theory like > say the song is in the key of G, and you know that you can use the scales: > G – Ionian > A – Dorian > B- Phrygian > C – Lydian > D – mixolydian > E- aeolian > F# – locrian > now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds > like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next > step and make the scales come to life and make a melody. like i can solo, my > hands are fast enough…i do it in my band now…but i don’t wanna be Kerry > King anymore..i wanna play in key, but trying to stay in key and use the scales > i’m a bit more hindered, like i can pull off and hammer on and bend all day > with in the scale, but it sounds corny…can someone help me out? > And the trace of shadows still remains. > www.traceofshadows.com
Response:
Iceman, Keep in mind, I am not yet a guitar player, but I was a jazz musician in a former life… I did pentatonics (actually 1-2-3-5 or 1-2-4-5) based on intervals after I learned the scales. Major scales would be the 1-2-3-5 and minor would be the 1-2-4-5 For example, starting with C Major C-D-E-G incrementing 1/2 step (C-D-E-G, Db-Eb-F-Ab, D-E-F#-A and on) C-D-E-G incrementing 1 step (C-D-E-G, D-E-F#-A, E-F#-G#-B and on) C-D-E-G incrementing 1-1/2 step and on all the way to the octave Once I did this in every key, then I modified it to every derivative and repeated. C-D-E-G up and down C-D-G-E up and down C-E-D-G up and down and on… Then do it with the minors 1-2-4-5 Plenty to keep you busy for quite some time. I was doing this 12 hours a day for weeks. Once you get the hang of it, it really opens your ear and lets you easily play chord substitutions all over the place in a variety of ways. Good Luck! Later, JM
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> okay…this may have been posted before, but i don’t have the patients to flip > through all the posts. so bear with me if i repeat a question. > after you’ve learned all the scales or even a good portion of them, like say > all the modes Ionian – locrian. and you have an okay foundation in theory like > say the song is in the key of G, and you know that you can use the scales: > G – Ionian > A – Dorian > B- Phrygian > C – Lydian > D – mixolydian > E- aeolian > F# – locrian > now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds > like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next > step and make the scales come to life and make a melody. like i can solo, my > hands are fast enough…i do it in my band now…but i don’t wanna be Kerry > King anymore..i wanna play in key, but trying to stay in key and use the scales > i’m a bit more hindered, like i can pull off and hammer on and bend all day > with in the scale, but it sounds corny…can someone help me out? > And the trace of shadows still remains. > www.traceofshadows.com
Response:
: now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds : like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next : step and make the scales come to life and make a melody. like i can solo, my : hands are fast enough…i do it in my band now…but i don’t wanna be Kerry : King anymore..i wanna play in key, but trying to stay in key and use the scales : i’m a bit more hindered, like i can pull off and hammer on and bend all day : with in the scale, but it sounds corny…can someone help me out? Hi, Try playing the melody note for note. From there try playing the melody but not quite note for note exactly… ie: slide into a note here, hammer-on to a note there, pull-off to a note here, bend this into that, hold a note so long that you have to squeeze the next four into two beats or one beat, or half a bet, use silence as a note, etc… By improvising off the melody, you are not merely running scales or arppeggios at a million notes per second (which is impressive at first, but gets real boring, real quick). Instead, you stay connected to the actual tune you are playing. Use the scales and your knowledge thereof to help you find the melody. Use the scale patterns to help you organize the notes you’re playing so that you aren’t hunting for the right spot to play the next note (ie: do you play C at string 5, fret 3, or do you play it at string 3, fret 5… what preceded it, what’s coming next… how do you get from here to there quickly on the fretboard). Just my two cents. I hope it helps. "You’re just jealous because the voices only talk to me!"
Response:
okay…this may have been posted before, but i don’t have the patients to flip through all the posts. so bear with me if i repeat a question. after you’ve learned all the scales or even a good portion of them, like say all the modes Ionian – locrian. and you have an okay foundation in theory like say the song is in the key of G, and you know that you can use the scales: G – Ionian A – Dorian B- Phrygian C – Lydian D – mixolydian E- aeolian F# – locrian now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next step and make the scales come to life and make a melody. like i can solo, my hands are fast enough…i do it in my band now…but i don’t wanna be Kerry King anymore..i wanna play in key, but trying to stay in key and use the scales i’m a bit more hindered, like i can pull off and hammer on and bend all day with in the scale, but it sounds corny…can someone help me out? And the trace of shadows still remains. www.traceofshadows.com
Response:
Hello Ice, If you’re asking where ‘ideas’ come from that’s not so easily answered. However, if you want to sound more, melodic, interesting, etc you might try targeting chord-tones for the various chords in the progression. How about sequencing? Playing an idea then repeating it to fit the harmony of the next chord/chords? Upper and lower neighbor tones? Chromatic up/low neighbor tones. Phraseology? Arpeggios? Scott Henderson has a terrific video ‘Melodic Phrasing’ on REH. # REH 828 Are you working with a good teacher? It helps save time. Anyway…Good luck to you. Take care, Rick 15 free lessons at – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> okay…this may have been posted before, but i don’t have the patients to flip > through all the posts. so bear with me if i repeat a question. > after you’ve learned all the scales or even a good portion of them, like say > all the modes Ionian – locrian. and you have an okay foundation in theory like > say the song is in the key of G, and you know that you can use the scales: > G – Ionian > A – Dorian > B- Phrygian > C – Lydian > D – mixolydian > E- aeolian > F# – locrian > now yeah the sound good when played over the progression, but it just sounds > like i’m "practicing" over the progression….how do you take it to the next > step and make the scales come to life and make a melody. like i can solo, my > hands are fast enough…i do it in my band now…but i don’t wanna be Kerry > King anymore..i wanna play in key, but trying to stay in key and use the scales > i’m a bit more hindered, like i can pull off and hammer on and bend all day > with in the scale, but it sounds corny…can someone help me out? > And the trace of shadows still remains. > www.traceofshadows.com
– Jazz Guitarist/Educator http://www.rickdelsavio.com
Response:
Related Posts