Open C and the 6th string
Question:
Great explanations. Thanks, guys. Ian
Response:
Sounds like you guys are both right, you have just provided a more technical explanation of "muddy". I like the explanation of low tuned string harmonics, it explains alot. Sniffin Vinyl
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an > open > C > > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > chord > > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > > phenomenon to this beginner? > > Thanks > > Ian > If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the low > E > string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great > strumming all six strings. > The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: > Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on the > 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you > wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E note > is > the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on > the > 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy. > Not even in the same ballpark. The reason that the low E sounds muddy is > because of what’s known as "low interval limits". When you play the notes of > the chord, you are also hearing "extra" notes known as harmonics. Notice > that the natural harmonics that you can play on the string are octaves and > 5ths. There are other harmonics, but they are not as strong. > Now, if you play (in this case) C and G, you’ll hear those notes, but you’ll > also be hearing their harmonics, which are G and D, respectively. These > notes don’t clash with the chord, but they add a little color to the sound. > This is what makes the "tone" of the notes. When you boost the lower > frequencies, you’re raising the volume of the lower harmonics, which gives > the note a "rounder" tone. > The lower the note, the louder the harmonics. If you listen really > carefully, you may be able to hear the octave harmonics when you play a bass > string, especially if the EQ is set in such a way. If you play the low E > note, you’ll hear the harmonics rather louder than the harmonics from the > 1st string or 4th string. When you play the low E string, you’re also > hearing the note a 5th away from E: the pitch is B. The B note clashes with > notes of the higher strings and makes the sound muddy. > None of this is all that important to know, other than you don’t want 3rds > or melodic tensions below the low F on the E string, generally. This is the > same if you play it on the piano. You’re not likely to play a C chord and > play the E note a couple of octaves lower than middle C. Too muddy. Not > clashing with the chord tones, just muddy sounding. > However, the low E can be used in the chord for a quick passing bass note. > For example, play the chords G–>C–>F. If you used the C with the open low > E, it resolves nicely to the F. > BTW, the "problem" with the doubled 3rd of the chord is a misnomer. The > chord already has a doubled 3rd. The note on the 4th string is E and the > note on the 1st string is E, as well.
Response:
In any case, you could switch your 3rd finger up to the 6th string, and use your 4th finger to play the root on the 5th string, and you have a pretty solid sounding C chord. I even think this is a little thick-sounding, but it’s pretty cool for rhythm guitar when you have a bass player playing the root of the chord.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sounds like you guys are both right, you have just provided a more technical > explanation of "muddy". > I like the explanation of low tuned string harmonics, it explains alot. > Sniffin Vinyl > > > The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an > open > > C > > > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > > chord > > > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain > this > > > phenomenon to this beginner? > > > Thanks > > > Ian > > If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the > low > E > > string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great > > strumming all six strings. > > The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: > > Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on > the > > 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you > > wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E > note > is > > the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on > the > > 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy. > Not even in the same ballpark. The reason that the low E sounds muddy is > because of what’s known as "low interval limits". When you play the notes > of > the chord, you are also hearing "extra" notes known as harmonics. Notice > that the natural harmonics that you can play on the string are octaves and > 5ths. There are other harmonics, but they are not as strong. > Now, if you play (in this case) C and G, you’ll hear those notes, but > you’ll > also be hearing their harmonics, which are G and D, respectively. These > notes don’t clash with the chord, but they add a little color to the > sound. > This is what makes the "tone" of the notes. When you boost the lower > frequencies, you’re raising the volume of the lower harmonics, which gives > the note a "rounder" tone. > The lower the note, the louder the harmonics. If you listen really > carefully, you may be able to hear the octave harmonics when you play a > bass > string, especially if the EQ is set in such a way. If you play the low E > note, you’ll hear the harmonics rather louder than the harmonics from the > 1st string or 4th string. When you play the low E string, you’re also > hearing the note a 5th away from E: the pitch is B. The B note clashes > with > notes of the higher strings and makes the sound muddy. > None of this is all that important to know, other than you don’t want 3rds > or melodic tensions below the low F on the E string, generally. This is > the > same if you play it on the piano. You’re not likely to play a C chord and > play the E note a couple of octaves lower than middle C. Too muddy. Not > clashing with the chord tones, just muddy sounding. > However, the low E can be used in the chord for a quick passing bass note. > For example, play the chords G–>C–>F. If you used the C with the open > low > E, it resolves nicely to the F. > BTW, the "problem" with the doubled 3rd of the chord is a misnomer. The > chord already has a doubled 3rd. The note on the 4th string is E and the > note on the 1st string is E, as well.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an > open > > C > > > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > > chord > > > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > > > phenomenon to this beginner? > > > Thanks > > > Ian > > If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the low > E > > string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great > > strumming all six strings. > > The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: > > Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on the > > 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you > > wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E note > is > > the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on > the > > 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy. > Not even in the same ballpark. The reason that the low E sounds muddy is > because of what’s known as "low interval limits". When you play the notes of > the chord, you are also hearing "extra" notes known as harmonics. Notice > that the natural harmonics that you can play on the string are octaves and > 5ths. There are other harmonics, but they are not as strong. > Now, if you play (in this case) C and G, you’ll hear those notes, but you’ll > also be hearing their harmonics, which are G and D, respectively. These > notes don’t clash with the chord, but they add a little color to the sound. > This is what makes the "tone" of the notes. When you boost the lower > frequencies, you’re raising the volume of the lower harmonics, which gives > the note a "rounder" tone. > The lower the note, the louder the harmonics. If you listen really > carefully, you may be able to hear the octave harmonics when you play a bass > string, especially if the EQ is set in such a way. If you play the low E > note, you’ll hear the harmonics rather louder than the harmonics from the > 1st string or 4th string. When you play the low E string, you’re also > hearing the note a 5th away from E: the pitch is B. The B note clashes with > notes of the higher strings and makes the sound muddy. > None of this is all that important to know, other than you don’t want 3rds > or melodic tensions below the low F on the E string, generally. This is the > same if you play it on the piano. You’re not likely to play a C chord and > play the E note a couple of octaves lower than middle C. Too muddy. Not > clashing with the chord tones, just muddy sounding. > However, the low E can be used in the chord for a quick passing bass note. > For example, play the chords G–>C–>F. If you used the C with the open low > E, it resolves nicely to the F. > BTW, the "problem" with the doubled 3rd of the chord is a misnomer. The > chord already has a doubled 3rd. The note on the 4th string is E and the > note on the 1st string is E, as well. > You have me dead to rights as far as the first position, five-string > "C" chord having two e’s in it already – completely forgot that. The > chord would sound better with only one "e" in it, but that’s just the > way it’s been played for as long as there’s been conventionally tuned > guitars. Compare to an E major chord – which has only the one third in > it. Spacious, clean sound. > Your discourse on harmonics is correct insofar as it goes – on big > pipe organs, they even wire together low bass pipes a fifth apart to > create a "resultant" tone, which is an octave lower than the lower pipe, > but it’s done with pipes that have a naturally powerful sound wave to > begin with, or it doesn’t work. The idea that the "muddiness" of tone > with the low "E" played in a C chord is *specifically* because of the > clashing harmonics is not convincing to me. It adds to the muddiness, > yes. It isn’t the cause. Your example of playing a C chord on the > piano with a low E bass is right on, though. It’s just a harmonic > sound, or maybe I should say a harmonic arrangement of tones that works > well in passing, but annoys the ear when it’s dwelt upon. > And – you’ll have to trust me on this one, I had four years of > theory in college – all music students are taught to avoid at all cost > three things: > "Diabolacus in Musica" (the dimished fifth), parallel octaves in voice > leading, and the doubled third in a chord. It is not a "misnomer". > The Old Guy
Well, "misnomer" may be a bit strong, but I took a lot more years in college music theory, and many of those rules are out of date. The diminished fifth is certainly a big part of popular music today(it’s the interval between the 3rd and flat7 of the V7 chord), parallel octaves are certainly used constantly, and we’re generally not as concerned with doubled thirds in chords as classical theory is. In guitar terms, we have the open G chord and the open C chord that both have doubled 3rds, as well as the majority of people who play D/F# that leave 2 F# notes in the chord. Music students studying traditional music theory may be taught this, but many of those rules are generally disregarded when advancing to more contemporary music. I’d suggest that we don’t hear with the same ears as listners of the past, and the existence of a doubled third is not as "outside" to us as it used to be. The concept of "low interval limits" is very much a valid and utilized concept in arranging. Specifically, in horn voicings, the "rule" is to avoid 3rds and tensions below F in the bass clef staff. There are more interval limit "rules" that address 2nds, 4ths, 5ths, etc., but I don’t have them at hand.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an open > C > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > chord > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > phenomenon to this beginner? > Thanks > Ian > If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the low E > string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great > strumming all six strings. > The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: > Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on the > 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you > wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E note is > the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on the > 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy.
Not even in the same ballpark. The reason that the low E sounds muddy is because of what’s known as "low interval limits". When you play the notes of the chord, you are also hearing "extra" notes known as harmonics. Notice that the natural harmonics that you can play on the string are octaves and 5ths. There are other harmonics, but they are not as strong. Now, if you play (in this case) C and G, you’ll hear those notes, but you’ll also be hearing their harmonics, which are G and D, respectively. These notes don’t clash with the chord, but they add a little color to the sound. This is what makes the "tone" of the notes. When you boost the lower frequencies, you’re raising the volume of the lower harmonics, which gives the note a "rounder" tone. The lower the note, the louder the harmonics. If you listen really carefully, you may be able to hear the octave harmonics when you play a bass string, especially if the EQ is set in such a way. If you play the low E note, you’ll hear the harmonics rather louder than the harmonics from the 1st string or 4th string. When you play the low E string, you’re also hearing the note a 5th away from E: the pitch is B. The B note clashes with notes of the higher strings and makes the sound muddy. None of this is all that important to know, other than you don’t want 3rds or melodic tensions below the low F on the E string, generally. This is the same if you play it on the piano. You’re not likely to play a C chord and play the E note a couple of octaves lower than middle C. Too muddy. Not clashing with the chord tones, just muddy sounding. However, the low E can be used in the chord for a quick passing bass note. For example, play the chords G–>C–>F. If you used the C with the open low E, it resolves nicely to the F. BTW, the "problem" with the doubled 3rd of the chord is a misnomer. The chord already has a doubled 3rd. The note on the 4th string is E and the note on the 1st string is E, as well.
Response:
You can, of course, get a G on the sixth string: First string open (E) Second string first finger first fret (C) Third string open (G) Fourth string second finger second fret (E) Fifth string fourth finger third fret (C) Sixth string third finger third fret (G) It still sounds slightly unusual as you don’t have a root at the bass, but it’s how most of us accoustic folkies would probably play it as it fills out the sound. Interestingly, if you play an open ‘A’ chord with all six strings, then the low ‘E’ also sounds dire, although it’s the fifth rather than the third. Even more interestingly (well, maybe), at the intro to David Bowie’s "Starman", there’s a barre ‘F’ chord where the sixth string is left unfretted and rings as an open ‘E’. Should sound dreadful, and would on any other track, but it’s genius. Duncan
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an > open > C > > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > chord > > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > > phenomenon to this beginner? > > Thanks > > Ian > If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the low > E > string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great > strumming all six strings. > The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: > Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on the > 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you > wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E note > is > the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on > the > 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy. > Not even in the same ballpark. The reason that the low E sounds muddy is > because of what’s known as "low interval limits". When you play the notes of > the chord, you are also hearing "extra" notes known as harmonics. Notice > that the natural harmonics that you can play on the string are octaves and > 5ths. There are other harmonics, but they are not as strong. > Now, if you play (in this case) C and G, you’ll hear those notes, but you’ll > also be hearing their harmonics, which are G and D, respectively. These > notes don’t clash with the chord, but they add a little color to the sound. > This is what makes the "tone" of the notes. When you boost the lower > frequencies, you’re raising the volume of the lower harmonics, which gives > the note a "rounder" tone. > The lower the note, the louder the harmonics. If you listen really > carefully, you may be able to hear the octave harmonics when you play a bass > string, especially if the EQ is set in such a way. If you play the low E > note, you’ll hear the harmonics rather louder than the harmonics from the > 1st string or 4th string. When you play the low E string, you’re also > hearing the note a 5th away from E: the pitch is B. The B note clashes with > notes of the higher strings and makes the sound muddy. > None of this is all that important to know, other than you don’t want 3rds > or melodic tensions below the low F on the E string, generally. This is the > same if you play it on the piano. You’re not likely to play a C chord and > play the E note a couple of octaves lower than middle C. Too muddy. Not > clashing with the chord tones, just muddy sounding. > However, the low E can be used in the chord for a quick passing bass note. > For example, play the chords G–>C–>F. If you used the C with the open low > E, it resolves nicely to the F. > BTW, the "problem" with the doubled 3rd of the chord is a misnomer. The > chord already has a doubled 3rd. The note on the 4th string is E and the > note on the 1st string is E, as well.
You have me dead to rights as far as the first position, five-string "C" chord having two e’s in it already – completely forgot that. The chord would sound better with only one "e" in it, but that’s just the way it’s been played for as long as there’s been conventionally tuned guitars. Compare to an E major chord – which has only the one third in it. Spacious, clean sound. Your discourse on harmonics is correct insofar as it goes – on big pipe organs, they even wire together low bass pipes a fifth apart to create a "resultant" tone, which is an octave lower than the lower pipe, but it’s done with pipes that have a naturally powerful sound wave to begin with, or it doesn’t work. The idea that the "muddiness" of tone with the low "E" played in a C chord is *specifically* because of the clashing harmonics is not convincing to me. It adds to the muddiness, yes. It isn’t the cause. Your example of playing a C chord on the piano with a low E bass is right on, though. It’s just a harmonic sound, or maybe I should say a harmonic arrangement of tones that works well in passing, but annoys the ear when it’s dwelt upon. And – you’ll have to trust me on this one, I had four years of theory in college – all music students are taught to avoid at all cost three things: "Diabolacus in Musica" (the dimished fifth), parallel octaves in voice leading, and the doubled third in a chord. It is not a "misnomer". The Old Guy —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—
Response:
> The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an open C > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the chord > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > phenomenon to this beginner? > Thanks > Ian
If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the low E string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great strumming all six strings. The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on the 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E note is the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on the 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy.
Response:
To expand a little on Stratomaster’s excellent reply, I’ve read that many players fret the open C as: 010233 using the pinky to fret the sixth string Also try open G as: 330023 using the pinky on 1 and ring on 2 instead of just the ring on 1 and open 2. A little tougher to fret, but nicer acoustic sound, IMHO. Have fun… Mike — Deb & Mike Pender e-mail: n9ivo at comcast dot net web: http://home.comcast.net/~n9ivo/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an open C > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the chord > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > phenomenon to this beginner? > Thanks > Ian
Response:
> > The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an open > C > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > chord > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > phenomenon to this beginner? > Thanks > Ian
In the key of C major, the third of the major chord is E, as you know. There is no law against having two thirds in a chord, anyone who wants can do it. But in classical music theory, you are taught to avoid a "doubled third", as it is a klunky, heavy sound. First position C chord on a guitar – using the low "E" – is a perfect example of that. Doubled fifths or octaves sounds fine – doubled third, not so good. The Old Guy —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—
Response:
For this same reason I usually play a G chord by muting the 5th string instead of playing the 3rd (B) I just can’t get used to hearing the low 3rd. Sniffin Vinyl
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an open > C > chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the > chord > sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this > phenomenon to this beginner? > Thanks > Ian > If you had a fifth finger (not counting the thumb), you could fret the low E > string at the 3rd fret, thus playing a G note. This would sound great > strumming all six strings. > The reason strumming the low E string as an E note sounds muddy is this: > Most guitar chords are very heavy on the 1st and the 5th, and light on the > 3rd. It just sounds better that way. When you play a power chord, you > wouldn’t play the 3rd at all, only the 1st and the 5th. Since the E note is > the 3rd of the C chord, including it in your strumming would go heavy on the > 3rd, and therefore sounds muddy.
Response:
The C major chord consists of notes C E and G. Yet, when fretting an open C chord only the top 5 strings are struck- not the low E which makes the chord sound ‘mushy’. This does not compute! Would someone care to explain this phenomenon to this beginner? Thanks Ian
Response:
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